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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:38 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Brisbane Australia
If anyone has the time I'd appreciate any feedback on this
sketch..
It's of a build I have started and will be launching
into tomorrow morning to build the side walls.

Based on discussion I was going to use the whole room as a mix suite .. but having the drum kit in the mixing room is not desirable for a few reasons.
So I've come up with this design and even laid out the timbers .. It all seems to work somehow.

Thoughts welcome on the central mixing control room dimensions.
They are 5300 at widest.
3700 at tother.
Splayed walls are at 3600.
Useable width of main studio is 4000 mm from between the speakers to the opposite wall.

Drum room is on the left. Right room is so are currently r my.

Main studio room access through drum room.
Main building door opens outwards.

Whole thing Is on a concrete bawe 6000 X 9000 mm away from other buildings.
Height is 2300 rising to a ridge of 2900


Do the central room proportions look reasonable for mixing in ?
I work on all styles although mostly instrumental.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:00 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Hi there "rudimental", and Welcome! :)

Quote:
will be launching into tomorrow morning to build the side walls.
:ahh: Whooooaaa! No no no no no! STOP! Don't do that. Don't even THINK of doing that!

I don't mean to be harsh, but you are about a year away from being able to build anything. You don't have a plan, you don't have a design, you have no idea what you want to do, or how to do it, and realistically it will take you many months until you do. If you try to build something now without a plan, it is doomed to failure. At the very best, it would be nothing better than mediocre.

The very best advice I can give you right now is one word: STOP!

In order to be of any use, a control room must meet some rather specific technical specifications. You can find those in ITU BS.1116-3: That's a document about the acoustic conditions that a room must have in order to be any good as a "critical listening" room. It's the most accepted document used by studio designers. Download it, read it, and design your studio as it says there.

The problem is, that most of the goals in there are specified in terms of acoustics: the decay times that your room will need, the frequency response, the modal response, etc. You don't seem to have the acoustic knowledge yet, that you need to understand how to implement those in your room. You will need to first learn the basics of acoustics, then the basics of studio design, and only then can you actually design your room.

I'm sure that is not at all what you hoped to be told when you found this forum, but as I mentioned above, it is the best advice you can possibly get right now.

You are certainly not the first person to come to the forum in this situation: Ready to start building, but with no plan. It happens regularly, and we always say the same thing to those new members: Stop. Learn. Design. Then build. It's strange that some of the people who hear that, ignore the advice: They think that we are dumb, and don't know what we are talking about. Or they have a million reasons why they cannot stop, and must build, right now. Strangely, they never come back to show us how fantastic their studios worked out. Never! Not once has there been a case where someone was given that advice, ignored it, and actually did manage to build a successful studio. Not once. Ever. On the other hand, many people HAVE listened to our advice, stopped building, learned how to do it right, took the time to plan properly, design properly, and only then built their place, months later. Strangely enough, all of those places turned out spectacular, without exception. In some cases, people had to tear down what they had already built, and start again. But it was worthwhile in the end. Here's one case like that: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17363

That's just one of many.

So here you have the same choice they had: Stop, take the time to learn, plan, design, and do it right, with good results. Or don't stop, carry on building those walls tomorrow, and end up with a mediocre studio that does not isolate and has lousy acoustics.

I'm sure hoping you are the type of guy that wants an excellent studio, and will happily drop your tools and take the time to do it right.

Quote:
but having the drum kit in the mixing room is not desirable for a few reasons.
Absolutely! I agree 100%! Some people can handle that, but I can't. Good call.

Quote:
It all seems to work somehow.
Not from my perspective as a studio designer, it doesn't... :)

Quote:
Splayed walls are at 3600.
Why did you decide to splay them? What angle are they splayed at? Are you aware that you need at least 12° angle in order to eliminate flutter echo? Are you aware that you don't nee to do that anyway?

Quote:
Right room is so are currently r my.
Ummmm.... sorry, I didn't understand that at all! :shock:

Quote:
Main studio room access through drum room.
So you will have to go through the drum booth to get in and out of the CR? And you'll have to go through both the drum booth AND the CR to get to the other room? That isn't practical. Having to go thourgh six doors just to go out and answer the phone, or take a smoke break, or fetch the music sheet from the car, is going to get tired, fast.

Quote:
Main building door opens outwards.
Well, the OUTER leaf door does, but the main door on the INNER leaf will have to open inwards. All studio doors are the same: For each pair, one opens out, the other opens in. There's no other way to do it. It's part of the whole two-leaf isolation system, and there's no other options here, for good isolation.

Quote:
Whole thing Is on a concrete bawe 6000 X 9000 mm away from other buildings.
Excellent! A fully decoupled concrete slab is the best possible floor you can have for your studio. So your final floors are already complete: nothing more to do there.

Quote:
Height is 2300 rising to a ridge of 2900
Where? Where's the low point, and where's the high point?

Quote:
Do the central room proportions look reasonable for mixing in ?
No. For some unknown reason, you are cutting off the rear corners of the room, but that's where some of your most important bass trapping should be! Why are you eliminating the best possible place for bass trapping?

Did you check those dimensions with a room mode calculator? What ratio did you get? What does the Bonello diagram show? Does it pass the three critical BBC tests? What is the Schroeder frequency for that room? How many sabins of absorption will you need in there, and where will you put it? What should the final decay time be, and how will you ensure that you achieve that with accuracy of 50ms between all adjacent one-third octave bands between 125 Hz and 8 kHz? Does your design achieve a true reflection free zone around the mix position? What speakers will you be using, and where will you place those to get the best geometry? Where will you place the mix position to get the best acoustic response, and avoid the major modal issues? Will you be flush-mounting (soffit mounting) your speakers? If so, why, where and how? If not, why not? Where will your HVAC silencers go? What size will they be? What internal cross-sectional area will they need? What flow rate (flow volume) does each room require? What speed (flow velocity) will you have at the registers in each room? What is your latent heat load and sensible heat load for each room? What heating/cooling/dehumidifying capacity do you need for each room?

If there's even one question there that you can't answer directly, instantly, without thinking about it, then you have a problem. You cannot build a room unless you know the answers to every single one of those, and many others. Including the most basic question of all: how much isolation do you need, in decibels? That's the single most important question. Most other design criteria will flow from the answer to that question. Until you know the answer to that, you cannot know what building materials and construction techniques you will need. Until you know that, you won't know how thick your walls, ceilings, doors and windows will be, nor how large / heavy your silencer boxes will be. Until you know that, you won't be able to determine the maximum possible dimensions for each room, and if you don't know that, then you can't design any of it...

So that would be my advice: First, stop. Then learn acoustics, then learn how to design your studio, then learn the design software, then do the design, in complete detail.... and only then start cutting and hammering...

Certainly not what you wanted to hear, but it's what you need to hear.



- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:38 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Brisbane Australia
Thanks for the many responses.
Today I built the second wall and added the outer insulation. Couldn't add sound grade plaster as my helper was away.
So I knocked up the third wall. Just needs fixing together. Noggins and the latest etc.
Neoprene going under the walls.
Making resilient channel this week at work from 0.55 mm galvanised steel. I'll fold it on the press then that goes on to more decoupling layers on the inside.
Adding an air pocket system between the walls to on.
I have 75 feet of it. I'll post pics aa I go.
Peer reviewed the dimensions and layout with a few friends with suites and the general consensus is its s hood shape and will more than decent for a home studio.
Will consider all comments this week.
Really appreciate the wide range of responses on here.
Anyway.
Here's what I built today. ...
Control room inner walls .. almost.
Minus roofing gables - they go on when all walls are built.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:38 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Brisbane Australia
Okay.
Thanks for the concern.
Walls can be used for an exterior skin.. believe me they'll come in handy.
I would love to design this properly..
I'm up for for measuring. Plotting. Running predictor software. Analysing and considering possible reflections and dead spots or phase issues.
I'm concerned that there may not be an ideal design for this space however as the roof is quite low.
How can we proceed ?
Perhaps I can supply the dimensions of the actual structure as it is currently ...
And go from there.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11949
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Neoprene going under the walls.
Why? There's no need for that. It does nothing useful, acoustically, except to seal the gap between the sole plate and the slab.... but it would be better (and cheaper) to sea that with several beads of suitable caulk....

Quote:
Making resilient channel this week at work from 0.55 mm galvanised steel. I'll fold it on the press
Sorry, but that is not resilient channel! Resilient channel is not just bent metal. It is metal that has been very carefully designed, shaped, cut, slotted, perforated, and bent, with precision, to produce the exact acoustic conditions that correctly decouple drywall from studs. Just bending any old bit of metal on a press is pretty pointless, and will not produce resilient channel. At best, it's just hat channel, which has no useful decoupling properties at all.

You should probably download and study this paper: https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference ... s/p221.pdf

Quote:
then that goes on to more decoupling layers on the inside.
You seem to misunderstand ow decoupling works.... Any resilient layer is a spring, and thus creates a resonant system. If you have several springs in series, then you have multiple interacting resonances, and the result will ALWAYS be a single frequency that is HIGHER than any of the individual frequencies. Simple physics. So by having SEVERAL such layers, you are mking your isolation worse, not better.

Quote:
Adding an air pocket system between the walls
I'm not sure what you mean be "air pocket system", but I'm hoping that you just mean you'll be leaving a gap between your outer-leaf and your inner-leaf, where there are no mechanical connections across that gap, and the gap itself is filled with suitable fibrous insulation of the correct density.... Is that it?

Quote:
Peer reviewed the dimensions and layout with a few friends with suites and the general consensus is its s hood shape and will more than decent for a home studio
:shock: :roll: Ummm... Sorry, but acoustics does not work by "general consensus"! Nor by the opinion of friends! Not even close. Acoustics works because of careful design, based on solid and well understood principles, and using well-known simple equations and methods to predict the outcome.

You see to not understand that every room is different. Every room has unique properties, and requires its own unique shaping and treatment. What works in one room that one of your buddies once saw, will NOT work in your room, unless your room is absolutely identical in all aspects. If your room has different dimensions, it will be tuned to different frequencies, so the treatment that was designed for the frequencies of ANOTHER room, will not be the right treatment for YOUR room...

Quote:
I would love to design this properly.
Great! Then I'd suggest two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. They will give you the basics that you absolutely must know before you can start designing and building your place.

- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:21 am
Posts: 8
Soundman2020 wrote:
Quote:
Neoprene going under the walls.
Why? There's no need for that. It does nothing useful, acoustically, except to seal the gap between the sole plate and the slab.... but it would be better (and cheaper) to sea that with several beads of suitable caulk....


Soundman2020 - Can I delve into this old thread and ask what is a suitable caulk for putting beneath sole plates (3 lines I've read on another thread). I just am not sure what to use. Will Everbuild AC50 do the job ??
Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:32 am 
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Posts: 5449
Location: Australia
Soundman 2020 no longer posts on this site.
You can go to his own Forum here: http://spartanew.digistar.cl/Forum/

I prefer to have neoprene under all my sole plates.
cheers
john

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